Hello everyone,
Since two weeks, I'm having problem with my GTi-R, when I try to start my car, the car drains que battery completly when I try to start the engine in less than a second. The battery in my car is new and I've also tried with another battery and the result is the same. When I boost my car, the car starts fine and I can do long distance without any problems. But as soon as the car stop and I try to start it, the battery is drained completly in less then a second. Even my headlights won't go on after I tried to start the car.
I was wondering if this trouble is a problem with the starter or if it could be the wiring or anything else.
Thank you,
Cope 99
you may have a short on the "hot" positive cable , check your grounds aswell
1992 nissan pulsar gti-r Black sold/1993 red/rusty parts car /1990 nissan pulsar gtir fully built vet with to much jam
Is there a way to test my starter without removing it, since the starter doesn't seem to be so easy to remove?
You have a bad connection somewhere in the main power cables. If you take a volt meter and test the battery directly from the terminals you'll see 12.6V from a new battery and anything from 12.2-12.6 is more than acceptable.
Here's how you test and find your bad connection.
Now with the volt meter, place the positive lead to the terminal on the battery (Not the connector) and the negative lead to a good ground on the motor. You should read 12.2-12.6V you can have someone try and start the car and the voltage should still remain. If it does not then you have a bad Negative connection to the battery or bad connection from the negative cable to the body (unless you have multiple grounds or a grounding kit.
If the voltage remains as it should now test the opposite side by having the negative lead from the tester directly on the battery Negative terminal (Not the Clamp/connector). Put the positive lead on the clamp/connector to the positive terminal. It may read 12.6-12.2V at this time. Have someone try and start the car. The voltage may drop down as far as 10.0V but should come right back up when the key is released. If it does not read the proper voltage then you have a bad or dirty connection to the positive terminal. If not try again with the positive lead touching the main power wire.
Basically what often happens is a bad connection to the battery terminals/clamps/connectors and that can be a loose connector to the terminal which you can check by moving the clamps by hand (if you can it's loose and you need to loosen the clamp, force them all the way down as they are a taper fit then tighten them so they can't move). Now since we know your battery is good since you've switched that out then a good question is have you cleaned the contact surface of both the battery terminals and the clamp surface which makes contact with the terminals? If not clean them.
If your problem isn't a loose or dirty connection between the clamp and the battery terminal you can move on to the connectors to the clamps. Some vehicles have a nut or bolt holding down the wires connector to the clamp. Remove the connection and clean the contact surface with a wire brush or some sand paper (usually evident with corrosion or a loose connection) and remount. If this doesn't solve it then move on to the next connection (I think there are 2 spade connections to the positive clamp). Since the starter has the largest wire connection and it's the signal/main power to the wiring harness that's cutting out (since your headlights won't turn on) I'd check the spade connectors for a good connection (make sure they're tight when attached).
The negative cable(s) have all the poewr come back through them and are just as important as the positive cables. Some cars have a single connector from one wire to the main body which should be unbolted and cleaned before remounting.
After all that you'll have covered about 97% of the possible failures of your problem atleast.
If your ground is good from the first test then move on to the positive connections. You can try and start the car and have the power cut out in that moment. Use the positive lead of your volt meter and trace the power from ther positive terminal to the clamp to the wire connector, to the individual wires and you should see the same power ass that from you battery terminal. When you find the voltage drop you know ther is a bad cannection from there and somewhere back to the battery terminal which is the source of the power.
You do not have a starter problem (Yet) from what you've described. You have a power issue which is cutting out of the loading of the starter system. Since you can use booster cables to start the car which I'll assume you've clamped onto the clamp and ground of the engine to start the car you've also bypassed the bad connection while doing so to start the car. I think, of the 2 large spade connectors to the main power positive clamp one is from the alternator which provides the charging power while running and the other is the main power wire to the harness.
P.S. your clamps should always be mounted while very loose so you can put them bottomed out to the terminal and then tighten because of the taper fit. Some people get lazy and when changing the battery, loosen the clamp till it comes off and then while still too small the clamp cannot be mounted down far enough to make a tight connection which is evident when you can twist the clamp on the battery terminal after the nut is tightened down all the way.
Good Luck and repost what your results are as this isn't the first time someone has had this and it won't be the last.
Thank you for this big step by step tutorial. I'll try and post my test tomorow if I have time.
Again thanks a lot,
Cope99
Cope99 how did you make out?
Last week week, my car ran great, absolutely no issues.
Parked the car in the garage last Sunday where it sat all week and didn't run. Last night I tried to start the car to load it on the trailer and the starter was just clicking. I thought it was the battery (which I had relocated several weeks earlier) so I changed it to a pretty much brand new one. Disconnected the small 14 or 16 gauge wire from the starter solenoid, put some di-electric grease there and reconnected it and the car started perfect. Tested it about 12 times and it started every time no problems. Ran the car for about a half hour and changed the oil, and loaded it onto the trailer for racing today. Today, we got out to the track and the same thing as last night happened again. I played around with the wire and it wouldn't go. We bump started the car and it took quite a bit to go, did not want to fire and when it did it went ran good for about a half second and then started farting and sputtering and stalled in the pits. Checked all grounds, chassy grounds everywhere with 8 gauge wire. Running in often wet conditions. Checked the positive spade connectors, checked the jumper in between, 12.6 everywhere.
Any ideas would help. We want to race next week!
This ishow it ran last weekend, #97 black and white car (took 3rd this race and won the feature the race after)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrNYbcDMMEE
PS By the way, this GTIR is all stock except for brembo rotors and was running perfectly last week.
Hi reves,
Looks like you've added a few potential issues (more connection points) and a few solutions at the same time when you added the grounding kit.
Now you'll have to do things in sequence or you won't be able to figure out what exactly is causing the issue.
1. Check power supply at battery terminals for proper voltage and refrence voltage from here on out. (12.2-12.6V is ideal)
- If power is not ideal do a voltage drop test (Use the starter which is the greatest single load to load the battery and test voltage at that time, requires possible 2 people unless you rig something up) Voltage should not drop below 10.0V or your battery isn't up to the task either cause of the amount of amperage available or there is an unusually large load created by extra wiring/bad connections
I've seen it drop below that voltage and still start it's just not ideal and you know the battery is getting weak on a stock system (modified with known "good" battery there are issues)
2. Voltage test at each sequential connection ie: from positive and negative terminal check each opposing connection from a direct connection from the source as to eliminate any possible issues and isolate the signal. Simple terms:Leave either test lead on any test on one of the battery terminals at "all" times. When testing is done from one polarity then switch to the other and check them too (don't just check for 12.2-12.6V just alond the positive wires. Check for 12.2-12.6V from the ground of items too)
3. Following every voltage test per connection with a load test for voltage drop. (this will test the connection and every one between that and the source for a bad connection)
4. When the voltage drop/bad connection is found, determine issue (loose connection, corrosion, paint [seen that too many times, don't rely on the screw/bolt threads for a good connection]) and fix it accordingly
Now to your specific issue. If you starter was clicking then the signal wire with the spade connection "the small 14 or 16 gauge wire from the starter solenoid" was not the issue as that wire provides a 12V signal from the key to activate the starter solenoid which is just a big magnet (which worked from the clicking noise if from the motor and not relays inside clicking) that shoots a metal rod to push the connection gear between the starter and flwheel into place while also making the final connection between the battery and the electric motor of the starter to spin when the gear is in place. If your starter was clicking then you have the start signal making it to the starter solenoid and it is activating. (If it wasn't the starter clicking and only relays then yeah your solution of cleaning the connection to the solenoid may have been the fix of a bad spade connection) Now if this is all woriking correctly up to the solenoid activating and making the final starter connection then the electric motor which is now connected should spin provided enough power (This is where bad connections become an issue since it is the heaviest load on the battery at one time), so this means a bad connection from either on the power or grounding side of the starter (which it has at least a partial ground or the solenoid would not activate... but not necessarily adequate for the electric motor load)
The next time at the track when it didn't start what was the supply voltage at the battery terminals? (is there a parasidic drag on the battery over night that eating the battery (should be less then 200ma of draw when the vehicle is off... if not trace drain through fuse box fuses to isolate and hunt down) If it was good then move on.
You mentioned you have 8 guage chassis grounds everywhere but from what points? This is my own philosophy when relocating the battery and upgrades to the power system when I believe it may be unfit. I always start from the battery terminals as a source of power, the grounds are just as inportant if not more so than the power wires are since you may not know what other items are flowing power through the same ground at the same time (ie: inadequate power due to inadequate wiring). Now I like to think of the battery as a christmas tree topping and move down and outwards from there. (atleast in thought and lay out) From the negative terminal I will attach the grounding kit out to atleast a few points including a few key ones. The first and most important is to the engine block itself as most of the power is flowing through the starter, alternator, spark plugs, sensor ground ect.... Second is to the chassis ground itself (2-3) on various points point around the battery as although the chassis is spot welded together you do not rely on them making good connection to be adequate for everything else since the failure of one ground then loads up the next connection which may have been good enough before but inadequate when increase load is applied. Third I like to then branch off the known good grounding points to other local areas. For example if I have a 1-4 guage wire running from the battery negative terminal directly to the engine block itself (mainly for the starter) I will also use a sightly longer bolt connection so I can branch off that point for a wire directly to the body of the alternator, the head of the motor, and atleast one to the body chassis up front to tie in the front chassis.
The last connections I like to add for grounding is the main harness from the dash and the fuel pump. The first is usually bolted to the chassis ground from somewhere under the dash but I like finding a ground somewhere close to the ECU grounding point so I know the ecu has a nice unobstructed ground. The second I'll just splice and extra wire from the battery directly to the negative wire as close to the pump as possible.
The motor is too often only grounded at a couple of points if not just one and this can lead to a multitude of issues like constantly swapping out alternators from burning out (Something my old AE86's used to do till I grounded the alternator body), giving incorrect guage readings from insufficient grounds, low or weak spark, and just smoothness of the engine running due to loaded circuits when insufficient grounds are available. Remember that the motor is vibration isolated to the chassis and that means rubber (or polyurethane if modded) which isolates both vibration and grounds.
You have to remember that the same power you use to power an item must still be able to return to the source of power in the circuit and when you create a load, that it is in the entire circuit and not just the power wire to the item.
Other good ideas:
-when relocating the battery, make a jumper point under the hood for those "just in case" moments when the car doesn't start as jumping the car from the battery has to go through all the same wiring. This way when jumping the car you supply power and ground to the stock wire to the starter and ground directly to the motor which the starter grounds out to. If theorhetically your wiring is good then you'll also be charging your battery so leave it connected to the running power supply (if by a car) for 5-10min. before trying to start as jumper cable are usually not the highest grade (unless industrial) and the starter will still pull the high amp load off your battery when starting. If your using a portable jumper pack which is always handy it doesn't have as hard of a time powering the starter up front nice and close to the starter. Lots of manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes provide a jumper point up front so why shouldn't we.
If you have any more questions just ask, but put up alot of descriptions (like everything you've tried) so we can help isolate the issue.
In my case, it was a bad grounding. I've cleaned up my grounds and everything runs fines now.
Thanks again khrys for your help.
Cope99
So we did try to boost the car (from the battery which now sits in the cabin of the car) and it still continued to click.
Before boosting we had 12.6V at all times at the battery posts including from where we extended it under the hood.
Last night the solenoid was still lightly clicking when I was quickly turning the key to the start position and back. Then I noticed smoke coming out from the engine bay (hood is off) so I disconnected the battery terminals right away and ended up finding what appears to be the ground wire going to the distributer, the jacketing is melted right off, all the way bare copper. The wire only smokes when the key is in the start position. That ground is attached to four other grounds on the passenger side passing through the firewall and appears to be going to the ECU. The group of grounds attaches to the fully welded roll cage throughout the car which the battery that has an 18" negative lead going to that cage. The rest of the existing chassis grounds have been cleaned and also attach to the same roll cage including the motor.
What I would like to know is what is causing the melting of the negative distributer wire jacket and why when I noticed that and disconnected the distributer and tried to bump it over the starter wouldn't click or do anything?
Also, why wouldn't the car run even after being bump started (the wire didn't melt until last night)? And with the melting of this wire, does this mean the distributer is finished? I don't believe it's the starter but rather some other electrical problem only affected by the key being in the start position. I have not put my amp clamp on to see if there is a phantom, drawing amperage.
I'm in the process of going through everything that you mentioned and I really really appreciate your thorough answer.
Ok here's the breakdown from what you've written reves.
Boosting from the battery inside the car just provides more power from the source which if you've already swapped out a good battery for isn't going to help since power from the source isn't the problem (but it's the best for charging your battery for sure)
Having 12.6V at all times means there is no load being put on the battery as it should at least drop down to 11.0V when starting ( I know your not getting that far) But when you mention you have 12.6V at all times I'm assuming that's when trying to load the system when trying to start the car. ( I know your not loading the system properly by your descriptions later anyway). So this says to me you've checked the positive wiring. Now have you done the reversal of this? Volt meter with positive lead directly on the battery terminal and the negative lead on the block of the motor? and now try loading it......???? If you do get the full voltage it should only be unloaded from your descriptions but when you do load it the voltage will drop down to 5.0V or lower I'm guessing.
Now what happened last night is just an escalation to your problem as now your compounding the problem by having the other existing wiring for small load ground eat up the load for everything. Basically the slight clicking is a cause of a weak magnetic field when turning the key to start and the solenoid clicks (barely). Now whats happening is you've completed the circuit for the highload electric motor and because you have an insuffiecient grounding issue the enitre load of everything connected to the motor is now grounding out to the only available ground which just happens to be the 16" wire grounding from your distributor to the rest of the main harness. The load will always heat the portion of greatest resistance which happens to be the bottle neck in this case being the ground wire for the distributor. All the power from the motor is now going through that one tiny little wire and yes it's going to heat it up till it burns.
Ok, now when you relocated the battery I'm assuming you used the same guage wiring from the battery to the old power wire under the hood (would have been best done with something a bit larger as the power has to travel a larger distance and the larger wiring help cuts down on the resistance load for the power to travel). I have zero guage wiring in one of my cars and my other car which runs compressors, 3000 watt inverter and amps run off of a 1 guage wire (for both power and ground). Now what are you running for grounds off your battery terminal and do the wires coming off the ground terminal equal or are they greater in size then the positive power wire? (for my answer read the last sentence). I mentioned on my earlier post that a circiuit having a large load puts equal strain on both the output wires and input wires.
Now when relocating what did you do for your negative wiring and what are the ground wires directly connected to? Hoping the cage since you seem to have used that as your main grounding source and if so are the wiring points equal to the guage of positive wiring again?(can't stress how important this is which is why I'm sort of repeating myself) Also when removing the battery from it's stock location what ever happened to the negative wire? There should have been the connector for the terminal leading down to wiring which was also bolted to the chassis which also tied further wiring to finally being bolted to the engine/tranny. Did you remove this wire? Did you connect another wire to it back to the negative terminal? Was the wiring of equal guage back to the battery or greater in size? (remember each connection point along the way unless unusually large will probably more then likely be a choke point.
Now you mention that you've pretty much tied all the grounds to the fully welded cage (being "the ground" of the car) since it does travel throughout the vehicle. What guage wiring do you have tied from the negative terminal to the cage? Since the cage is tied into the vehicle and then the motor is grounded to it, it could be assumed that the power would travel back through the large cage but that would be relying on each weld point for a good grounding and each bolted connector for ground to be good as well. I'm assuming that the fully welded cage means the cage is welded to the existing chassis and not just tubing welded to plates which are bolted to the chassis. by sandwhiching other plates for a larger surface area to clamp on to. What size wire do you have coming from the cage to the engine?
Your 18" guage negative lead from the battery to the car is good for a few lightbulbs and not the running of the motor (I'd have atleast a 4 guage wire or larger to make these main connections)
So The melting wire of the distrbutor negative is because the starter is trying to push all the load of power through the tiny wire as it's only path for a circuit. When you removed this wire and tried to bump it over it wouldn't work at all and no clicking is because you just disconnected the circuit from it's only source of a good ground.
The car may have not been able to start because while running (no load from the starter as your bumping it) you car needs to have the fuel pump running (medium load as it spins constantly) for fuel pressure, ECU signals and sensors powered, enough power for the ignition coils to create a spark, power for each one of the fuel injectors to create a magnetic field to open the injectors at their pulse width and a voltage for the field coils in the alternator to create any electricity from the motor spinning. Usually the car will prime the fuel pump pressure if there is power, if not there will be little to no fuel pressure as the system is designed to slowly bleed back the pressure as to not fatigue the rest of the parts so they last longer. When bumping the motor over to spin you still have to have the ecu powered up enough to open the injectors and create spark. This is all before the alternator kicks in to create the necessary usual voltage of 13.0-14.8V while running to have everything operate normally like the fuel pump relay staying on after the ignition signal is up to speed to keep the fuel pump going (helps save the pump from running on when the engine dies). So starting a fuel injected car with insuffiecient voltage can sometime be extremely difficult.
The distrubutor is not finished (maybe just that wire). I don't think it's the starter from your description of how it ran before the issues came up. I don't think there is a phantom draw as you've taken most of those things out already and your measuring of the voltage at the very beginning tells us it's not being drained anyway.
Short simple answer to all of this rather then figuring it out through my long explanation. Run a 4 guage wire or larger from your negative terminal directly to the motor and smaller ones out from there as mentioned in my last post. You'll remove the problems of where the problem lies and all the old wiring will just be back up (or dead weight if your racing as every ounce counts). You still need a wire from you head to the chassis harness where the ecu grounds so you don't have to worry about the wire you burned.
If you want to do a quick test to see if your motor still runs, just run a wire from the head to the chassis ground (replacing the burned wire) of the ECU (the 4 wires that are grounded together) and then you can hook up a jumper pack (or battery with good jumper cables) with the positive connected at the stock location of the battery and then the ground cable connected directly to the engine. This should bypass all your reloacting issues for a test and the car should start fine from there.
I think you have a bad ground between the motor and the battery which is why you are shorting out the one good ground wire which happened to be the distrbutor negative wire. Your other grounds are either dirty in connection or may not have a good contact surface which eventually sparked themselves out leaving carbon tracks which have essentially disconnected those points.
Again let me know if you have any questions and the more you can answer from my questions or the better your descriptions of what you've done would help a lot.
PS please post your findings for everyone to benefit from.
After we posted last night we went around the car with jumper cables, attached them to the battery at one end, ran a two foot lead off the small wire on the starter solenoid, put that to the positive clamp and went around the chassis with the ground and it wasn't until we put the negative clamp on the engine block that the solenoid engaged properly. Ground all along, lesson learned. Still have to put the car back together but just wanted to let you know that we realized this after we posted. The distributer was the only ground that the started could use. Makes total sense. Thanks for all the input, you have been very thorough and helpful.